Thursday, 8 September 2011

It's Thanks To Free Will I Made This Post

This actually started out as the introduction to my Choices Choices Choices post, and then I decided that I could probably turn it into a post all of it's own, as it actually seems a bit of a point away from the original topic of choices, plus when you dedicate yourself to making a post a day, you kind of take whatever posts you can get your hands on lol. I wonder how long it's going to take me to post things I found online. I don't have a problem with that, I just like to do my best to provide original content of my own devising.

I talked before about the trilemna of God, about the existence of evil. I managed to disprove atheists and unite the world under the banner of me. Alright that didn't happen, but it should have. A bigger problem people have with God though is this.

"If God knows the future, the future must already be determined. If the future is already determined, we have no control over our future actions. If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them. So either there is no Hell, or God is a jerk."

We have free will, but God knows everything, and will punish us (Hell) for what we do, so therefore either God doesn't know everything, or he knows our paths, and is still going to punish us for them. My simple answer to that one is that I don't believe people get sent to Hell, and that God IS a jerk sometimes. But even if God knows your choices, then that means YOU STILL MADE THEM. What is your problem? That God didn't stop you making a bad choice? You lose your free will that way, and then no one is happy.

Just because God knows the choices you will make does not mean that you don't have a choice, you do still decide everything in your life. I for one don't believe that the future is pre-determined, despite having a nice belief in fortune telling, and thinking that some things are meant to be, IE soulmates, things are supposed to happen to you. You can change the future. You get to decide everything you do. I already discussed that before with my post about choices.

If God knows the choices you're going to make, it doesn't mean that you didn't make them. Think back to how different things could have been, but you chose what you did, and no one made you do that, not a God anyway. If God "gave you the strength" to do something, like quit, or start (he works both ways) smoking, then you still chose to do it, you had the power to do it inside you all along.
Universe's Greatest Troll



I'm going for Prophet here but I haven't decided which God I'll be a prophet for. Maybe Thor. I also want to point out, once again, I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. I just believe in God, and like to answer questions like this. Not everything I ponder has to do with God, it's just that he's responsible for most of the ponderable questions. So yeah, save the Christian hate would you? I'm not Christian. I don't even mind atheists, like I've said before, you're entitled to your own opinions. I'm less fond of religious people than I am non-religious folks usually actually. I don't like people who try to force their beliefs on others, and here, I'm not trying to make you believe anything, I'm just trying to make you think.

I still vote for me to be the new prophet though. One of my readers IS a Pope. Maybe he can fix me up.

49 comments:

  1. I am a Pope, and have no problem ordaining you as a prophet of Eris, even though it will jeopardize our non-prophet status on tax forms.

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  2. I'm always reminded of Milton's "Paradise Lost" whenever someone brings up the topic of free-will and the disbelieve of god. My own disbelieve in god is difficult to explain, and from a logic standpoint, that's where the greatest difficulty arises. If the almighty is a sole, supreme deity, who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, then from a logical standpoint, freewill cannot exist because in it's definition, Omniscience indicates that an almighty creator knows everything that has happened and everything that will. Which means god knows that people will commit sins before the sins are committed. Which gives rise to the question why doesn't he stop them? Because the fallacy of freewill needs to be upheld?

    It's like the devil. While a poem and not a religious text to be followed, Milton puts the idea of whether or not Satan rejected god because he was ordered to be the almighty, or because he chose to. Milton answers it within his own spectrum and understanding of the Adversary (and seeing as most of the ideas of the devil within western society stem from Milton's work, within most theological understanding post-Milton), by the fact that the Devil rejected the Almighty through free will. But he doesn't answer the problem or address it, because Milton was Christian, and while his works revolutionized the religion, he didn't challenge such a large convention. Ultimately, it's everything about human nature. We know so much, but so little at the same time. It feels like freewill, but maybe we won't find out until we're dead. And then again, maybe we'll never find out.

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  3. In my opinion, God builds the future with and without the choices we humans make. In other words, fate and choice both exists.

    There are things which are unavoidable in the way God has decided to, and there will always be a reason, a purpose, or such. Some call it maktub.

    And there are also things that we are gifted in with our chances to twist the 'plan' of God. This is the part where we have to strive hard.

    Personal opinion ;) you write brilliantly anyway (:

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  4. @Timothy Bowen Ahhh good pun :) I don't know a great deal about Eris, I shall have to learn more if I wish to become a prophet.

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  5. @Generally Disgruntled I should probably read that. That was the problem I was trying to address here, how he can know everything but still punish us for what we do, instead of just stopping us. I don't think stopping a person can really solve anything, if you stop a child from doing something, it makes them want to do it more, you have to let them make the mistake in the first place. Whether you stop the child or not, it will complain at you, either because you stopped it, or because you didn't. I thought Lucifer rejected God because God chose humans over angels, or at least in Satan's eyes, but it is true that if God is all so powerful, he could have just stopped Satan, and forced him to obey, but he didn't, he let the guy have his free will and do his own thing. You see what happens when you try to take away free will in prisons, and again, with children. The more you suppress a person, typically, the more they will fight back.

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  6. @Joshua Christian That is generally what I think too. That some things are meant to happen, but for the most part, we make our own choices, and the future is shaped not just on ours, but on a lot of other peoples as well.

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  7. This is blasphemy!!! LOL

    yeah, this got me thinking.. (big time)

    LOL almost fell of my chair when I read "one of my readers IS a pope"

    I don't really know much about God but I believe in God...faithful not religious


    my blog

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  8. @Indistinctive Writer One of my readers is the great Pope of Eris Timothy Bowen :) "Faithful not Religious"...I'm going to have to borrow that sometime. I believe in God, but not religion lol.

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  9. @Joshua: I'm so with you 100% :)

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  10. All this talk of prophets and popes... where's my cool religious title?

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  11. @A Beer for the Shower I'd say you guys deserve one for showing us the truth of zombie-were-Jesus.

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  12. I kind of question my free will sometimes.
    If free will exists, we're still being heavily manipulated by everyone and everything around us.
    If it doesn't, well, there's no reason for us to know, and maybe we shouldn't. It time a single, linear line? Does it consist of diverging paths, splitting up as we make choices? We'll never know...

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  13. @FangThere are people that say every time we make a choice, another universe is created where we made the opposite choice. I like the infinite universe theory myself too. We're always being manipulated and influenced yes, but we still get the choice as to whether we follow them or not. We make the choice to allow our will to be changed. Although I'm not saying everyone who does is weak willed, I'd never say I haven't been swayed, I can be swayed quite easy sometimes, despite thinking I have a very powerful will.

    As for time, maybe I'll cover that next...time. lol. There's no real way to tell how time works because for the most part, time is a man made device. Everything is changing, and we decided to call it time.

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  14. Thor? Why not Loki? Or Odin? Hey, I personally think you need to go the paitrant saint route. They accept all religions for that one.

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  15. @Copyboy I can be the patron saint of rambling lol. Thor has thunder, and a giant hammer, you don't mess with someone like that. Loki and Odin are cool, but Thor, Thor's badass.

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  16. Eh, I still think free will is an illusion and part of that illusion is allowing us to think we have free will.

    Based off something I read once, I hope I recalled it correctly.

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  17. Seems that you over complicate the idea of choice just to justify the existence of a God.

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  18. you bring up some good points

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  19. @Shaw I'm actually kind of perplexed now. For once I've been rendered speechless. I don't quite see how a person can oversimplify the idea of choice. It's quite simple, you do something, or you don't. There are tons of factors sure, and people do things they don't want to do if they can think of a good enough reason to do it. Such as taking a job you hate to support your family. Or the people who are reduced to stealing food. I could overcomplicate that sure, but the general message I was trying to send here is "just because God knows the choices you're going to make doesn't mean he can't punish you for them." Damn, this entire post could have been reduced to one sentence. But if I did that, I wouldn't deserve my name lol.

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  20. Free will? There has never been any free will?! FREE WILL IS JUST A MYTH!!!

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  21. You can't prove or disprove the existence of a God, thats how I look at it. Personally, I think God is all in our heads, and we are the only ones who can inhibit our free will. There are obviously outside factors that can get in our way, but its up to us to jump over them. If we don't jump over them...well then thats where hell comes in.

    Interesting post though, I hadn't really thought about this for a while.

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  22. great theories. love to reat about this stuff

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  23. I'm going to tell you the truth, Zeus is the real god.

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  24. @My 2 Pesos I wouldn't mind that, Zeus throws lightning at people. That dude rocks.

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  25. So what about a guy who gets killed by a lightning or starving kids in africa or other similar stuff, where all that happens is, that you suffer or just die for no reason, without you having any chance to affect it? Where is choice in that? Isn't a God, who makes these things happen the biggest asshole ever? Not sometimes, but always?

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  26. @Bob God is pretty much generally an asshole. There's a lot of shit wrong in the world, and a lot of people who die needlessly. There's no doubt that God can and will be a huge asshole at times. It's also a shame when people "need" to die just to make people do things, or think things. Just because there is always a purpose, doesn't make God any less of a dick. I'd call him a dick way before I spent ages failing to come up with reasons as to why he isn't.

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  27. Also, do you know the Atheist Experience show? Give it a watch sometimes.. I don't agree with all they say, but they're still some smart guys.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAtheistExperience

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  28. Mark: Why would you believe in him then? People mostly believe in God, because it makes life easier to bear for them and also it makes them less afraid of death, but if you agree, that he's an asshole, why would you believe in him.
    Not to mention, that there's no evidence of his existence.

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  29. @Bob Do you mind waiting until I turn that into a blog post? That's a good subject to cover really, I probably should have done that ages ago lol. If you really can't wait, I'll sum it up, it's not like anyone reads the comments <_<

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  30. Mark: I don't mind either way, do what you prefer.

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  31. @Bob Look forward to it then :) I already had so many posts planned already though so I don't know when I'll fit it in.

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  32. Or maybe god doesn't exist and this is all a moot point.

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  33. According to Paradise Lost, it's never really a hundred percent clear. The general consensus is that he chose to rebel, but then again, it's literature so there are a billion different ways to interpret it. Just like the free will argument. From a completely logical standpoint, freewill cannot exist when god is omniscient. Because that means that people can never make choices that the almighty isn't aware of the outcome, and because of the lack of human understanding, we can't interpret what is or isn't free will. Maybe god wanted you to make this post?

    Then again, atheist.

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  34. @Generally Disgruntled I'm failing really to grasp how God knowing what we would do means that we didn't have the choice. It is true that we don't know what is an isn't free will, we don't know if we chose to do something. Maybe God created atheists just to bolster his own ego so that people will deny he exists but the ones who don't show a greater love for him. I think I've read or heard something like that before. I just think that just because someone knows the outcome doesn't mean the choice was removed. I'm not about to do something or not do it because some guy who supposedly lives on a cloud tells me to. At least, that's what I'd like to think.

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  35. trying to do logic about something that is at its core illogical requires cognitive dissonance. Its much easier when you realize there is no god and its time to stop worrying about sins and just try to live a good life not for a perceived reward or punishment but because its just a good thing to do

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  36. @aamedorI seem to be quite happy with my cognitive dissonance lol. I don't worry about good or evil, or what might happen if I commit a sin. I've committed more than enough to go to Hell, if people go there, which I doubt, and it's a running joke between me and my friend to exaggerate just what I've done.

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  37. That's actually the point. IF god is omniscient, then we can never know for sure if freewill exists or not. Because humanity cannot be sure whether or not the actions they take is part of some grand, orchestrated design or based on the precepts of free will. It's entirely paradoxical in nature. Because all we can do is conjecture, and all our beliefs are based entirely on conjecture. You're conjecturing that god exists, and I'm conjecturing the he doesn't. Neither of us knows for sure. Because we can't know, and maybe never will. Freewill versus a monotheistic interpretation of god (Omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient) equals paradox. We may never know. All I know is that it's magic

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  38. @Generally Disgruntled That is a good point, Christians are always banging on about God's grand scheme. Who's to say what is and isn't part of it. No one really. One thing that pisses me off more than anything about religious people is how they claim to know just what God wants (wait am I guilty of that now?) but I don't mean people like me anyway, I mean the people who say things like "Believe in my God or I'll kill you" and the various other bullshit they come out with, like female genital mutilation. That isn't cool, don't do it. But just like you said, you can't prove or disprove free will, or a lack of it. Free will may be an illusion, it may be real, but eh. In the end we're all going to die anyway. At least if there is a God I get someone to punch out for all the crap that's been thrown my way and that's wrong with the world. But I suppose if there is a God, he could probably explain it all in a way that calms me down. I guess that's one thing I'm trying to do here, explain things.

    Some things really can't be explained though.

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  39. Freud's concept of the Death Instinct. Every living organism ultimately seeks to end its life

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  40. @Generally Disgruntled I highly doubt that. Both that everything seeks to end it's own life, and that God really cares. Well, that isn't to say he doesn't care, but that he doesn't care what a person does. Or is. As for Freud, I'm too aware of my own mortality, I'm in no hurry to die. If anything my recent attempts at weight loss are proving that is it started getting this intense when my doctor said I'd be dead by 30. I have plans to book an appointment on the day after my 30th birthday and ask him if something's wrong lol.

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  41. Think about this at it's most basic: what's the meaning of life? To die. It's in an organisms unconscious. Ultimately, everyone knows their going to die, and our unconscious mind embraces this fact and pushes us towards our ultimate goal. You can't stop it, your conscious mind wants to, but the reassuring voice of your unconscious causes you to accept it.

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  42. We might need to have a little talk little guy. The rabbi does not approve all this riff raff. -.-

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  43. @Hasidic Plumber Me? Well you still have my email. I meant no offense.

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  44. @Generally Disgruntled I do say the meaning of life is death. I said it here not too long ago actually in my Q&A post. I accept that one day I'm going to die yes, but I haven't ultimately started my subconscious journey to it. That sounds like a fear of failing, you fear that you're going to fail if you try, so you deliberately fail.

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  45. Well if God(or whatever is out there) is in fact omniscient, a lot of quantum physicists will be very unhappy. If every particle in the universe is constantly being observed quantum fluctuations by definition cannot exist and we've just lost the proof that Laplace's Demon is impossible. Which wouldn't be too bad really, but I fear my physics professor would commit suicide...
    And @Generally Disgruntled: sure we're all going to die. But that's just the destination. We can still leave some artwork on the seats of the train before we have to get off, and other people might just appreciate it while they're sitting in your now empty seat. Also, there are a LOT of people who do not display any self-destructive behavior at all, so I'd contest your statement that our subconscious drives us towards that goal.

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  46. @Astaroth I'm not too sure how an omniscient God destroys quantum physics, but I don't know much about either subject really lol. Maybe God is just what messes with a particle that causes it to fluctuate. Maybe he's just not even real. I agree though that just because we're going to die is no reason to not enjoy the journey.

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